Pricing Used Instruments
A Walk Around the Block in the Reality-based Community
“I want to sell my 15 year old <insert instrument here>. What do I do?”
“Well, I may know some people looking for a <insert instrument here>. What do you want to get for it?”
“I did some research and new ones are selling for $3000, so I was thinking $2750.”
Ok. Let’s back up a bit here. I see this foolishness happen way too often. The seller’s position is an approach built on fanciful belief and wishful thinking rather than facts and reality. Trying to sell a 15 year old instrument for near the price of a new one is a waste of time. It is harmful to a healthy market because people view pricing by populism rather than value and without education into the item. If you go to ebay and see 1000 listings for a certain item all priced around $1000, then despite the fact that only 15 of those items actually sell for $1000, the perception is the item must be worth $1000. In this edition, I will try to lay out some actual facts and best practices that can be applied to most situations.
Two things to make clear up front: 1) Determining a price for sale can be and usually is a completely different thing than insurance valuation. 2) Considering a musical instrument “an investment” should only be done in the context of using the instrument for one’s career, education, or enjoyment. Investing in an instrument in hopes of value appreciation and making money on a future sale is foolish and risky.
But it’s almost* new…
If you have an instrument that you bought new somewhat recently and wish to sell it on your own on the used market, it is very important but not terribly difficult to determine a proper price. Always keep in mind the retail truism of a car depreciating as soon as you drive it off the lot. This applies to most musical instruments in regular production. Bespoke and truly hand crafted instruments made to order with a long wait list can defy this model, but for the most part, depreciation is a real thing which must be considered.
The pricing model described below can apply to most instruments and aftermarket accessories like head joints, necks, barrels, and bells. Here are the parameters I will use for this section so we deal with nice round numbers:
you are selling a hypothetical instrument that you purchased new 3-4 years ago for $2000
the instrument was well cared for
it is still a model in production, although new similar models have emerged and the new retail price has been lowered a little ($1800)
you are selling it to partially cover the cost of a new instrument
The rule of thumb with musical instruments entering the used market is to price them for sale with a starting point of 1/2 to 2/3 of what you paid for it new. This means your starting range is from $1000 to ~$1350. If it is in really fine condition and there is demand for the particular model, you can likely lean towards the $1350 mark. However, if there are factors to consider such as condition (cosmetic or mechanical) that may detract or if there is a large supply or low demand, if you want it to sell any time soon then starting the pricing around $1000 is more sensible.
This pricing model may shock or even offend some people’s sensibilities, but this is the reality of pricing on the used market. Trying to sell this item independently for $1700 is a non-starter. Keep in mind, even though you may have paid more, the new price is now lower. This happened about 20 years ago with Buffet R13 clarinets. The manufacturer drastically reconfigured prices, lowering the price of new R13s substantially (almost $1500 if I remember correctly). All of a sudden people trying to sell a used R13 had no buyers. Not even music stores, usually a reliable buyer, were buying used R13s. Proper pricing is the first step to making a sale, but sometimes the market currents are flowing in a different direction.
Typically, the new sale price of an instrument will rise over time, but not always. If it does rise, the prospective second hand sale price may then rise proportionately. If the price of a new instrument of the same model 4 years later is $2500 (in our example the new purchase price was $2000), it may be reasonable to adjust the used sale range to $1250-$1700.
“Ok Mr. Woodwindfixer Guy, that’s all fine and good, but I have a rare 5 digit blah-didee-blah and it is worth way more than when it was new. So there. Harumph.”
Vintage: Ooooooohhh!
When you get into older instruments, generating a fair price can become a more challenging venture, particularly when dealing with instruments with a “following” or internet hype. Selmer Mark VI saxophones, “Golden era” Haynes or Powell flutes, and Loree oboes with a particular serial prefix are examples of vintage instruments people will often seek, and sometimes receive values beyond the formula I posted earlier.
Most of the time, with professional grade instruments, the formula stands. You simply have to plug in a modern comparable price. When Selmer Mark VI saxophones were released in the 1950’s they were selling for $650-900. Obviously there has been inflation. In 1954, $650 was worth what $7500 is today, but we don’t have to deal with inflation calculators and finding an origination price. We just have to compare apples to apples.
A Selmer Mark VI was a top of the line professional caliber saxophone, generally in lacquered brass. Most top of the line lacquered brass alto saxophones today have a retail price of $7000-8500 across all of the major brands. This tracks pretty well compared to the inflation calculators.
If we plug something in that range, like $7700, into our formula, the reasonable used market price of a pro alto saxophone would be roughly in the range of ~$4000-5000. But we have 2 variables that enter into the equation that are not insignificant and difficult to quantify: condition and desirability. I’ll talk more about condition in a bit, but let us assume this price range constitutes “pretty darn good” cosmetic and mechanical condition. Something that has wear, scratches and dents, or is in need of repair, will likely need to be priced below the $4000 point. But if a particular instrument is desirable, either due to actual playing qualities or hype, it may overcome any condition concerns. If it has few condition concerns AND is desirable, then it may well exceed this used price range.
Hype can work both ways. It can easily inflate a price beyond what the formula suggests is reasonable, or it can deflate a price below what is expected. This is where asking questions and understanding market trends are important. Determining condition and desirability, and knowing what to do with that information often requires research and calling on the legitimate expertise of others. Do not throw up a post on an internet forum asking “What’s this worth?” and waste everyone’s time. If you are having problems with assessment, in-person evaluation is the best course of action.
A Rare Mint Unicorn
Two buzz words that get thrown around all the time are “rare” and “mint condition”. Neither of these terms should be used nearly as much as they are.
Easily, more than 9 times out of 10, an instrument that is advertised as “rare”, isn’t. In fact, most I have seen don’t even rise to the level of uncommon. An instrument model or design that had a known run of only a few examples is legitimately rare. An instrument that had an extensive production but most were lost is rare. An instrument with provable provenance of being owned by a notable person is rare. All others are considered uncommon or common.
There is nothing wrong with an uncommon or even a common instrument. How many were made does not necessarily affect the desirability. The Selmer Mark VI saxophones are a good example. Around 200,000 instruments were stamped Mark VI during the model’s production. That is certainly not rare and only qualifies as uncommon if you begin parsing out instruments made in a specific year. Yet they remain highly sought after.
While it is true that when a player finds an instrument that when they play the heavens open, the sun shines brightly one them, mice in feety pajamas dance on toadstools, and their enemies gnash their teeth from the dark shadows, it could be considered a rare occurrence. But the instrument itself is likely not rare. It is the pairing of the specific player and the specific instrument that is rare.
Please stop advertising an instrument as “rare” unless it actually is.
The term “mint condition” is abused even more. This term came out of the field of collectible coin grading and is defined as “uncirculated quality”. Such a condition simply does not exist with musical instruments. Such an instrument would need to be of identical quality to something referred to as New-Old Stock (NOS), meaning an instrument that a merchant has in their inventory to sell, but it has never sold.
For a musical instrument to be truly considered mint condition, it must have all of the original paperwork and warranty cards, have no scuffs or marks on the case suggesting travel or use, have no wear on the finish anywhere, have all of the original pads/corks, and no staining or apparent moisture traffic on the pads suggesting use.
This is an extremely high bar to clear, and even what we describe as “closet” instruments (instruments played for a short time then left unplayed, usually in a closet for decades) cannot meet it. The simple degradation of of materials like pads, felts, and corks from age is enough to make a true mint condition instrument past a certain age a near impossibility.
Please remove the term “mint condition” from casual usage for instruments. Find other adjectives.
Some people have adopted the term “museum quality” for older instruments in exceptionally good condition. This can be a loaded term as well with only inferred and implied definition. The suggestion is that if something is good enough to be in a museum it must be in really good condition. As someone who has done extensive research of instruments in museum collections I can tell you that “museum quality” covers a vast array of conditions. Instruments in museums are rarely played, and preserving existing historical condition is the primary focus rather than function.
Here are some descriptions and grades of instruments I try to keep in mind when assessing instruments (these are not quantified and may mean something different to others):
Mint or NOS quality: Rarely played at all. A show piece for display.
Demo: An instrument sampled by enough customers at a store that it has some cosmetic wear and cannot be sold at the same price as its much cleaner and shinier brethren. This is an appropriate standard to apply to instruments on the second hand market. Some unusually good “closet instruments” can meet this level.
Below these top two conditions I will usually either use a school grading scale of A through F or use terms like “Pristine, Excellent, Good, Fair, and Poor”.
I will usually give separate grades to the cosmetics and the mechanical condition. Under scrutiny, even new instruments rarely get a mechanical grade above A-.
“Plays well. Recently Serviced.”
As a technician, I always regard such phrasing dubiously. As a seller, you want to get as much money from the sale as you can, but you don’t know how repair prior to sale will affect that.
If you choose to have the instrument repaired properly, unfortunately it is unlikely to raise the price to get all of your repair cost back. On the other hand, if the instrument is not playable or doesn’t play well due to need for repair, unfortunately you will probably have to lower your asking price for someone to take a risk on buying it.
This is where sneaky games are often played by people wanting to get every possible price bump but who want to avoid the cost. People will say “it plays fine” when it may be barely hanging on. They will say it has been recently serviced when all that was done was a new tenon cork. Occurrences have been seen where people will outright lie and sell instruments claiming a recent overhaul by a notable technician, but the technician never saw the instrument.
When in doubt, make sure the instrument you are selling is in playing condition. An overhaul is generally not needed for a sale, but instruments with a solid overhaul in them may generate more interest from buyers provided it is priced sensibly. Many people who are buying instruments on the used market will take it right to their tech anyway.
Ok, Ok, Mr. Woodwindfixer Guy. I get all this stuff, but you said I should sell my instrument for $1300 and the store down the street is selling used ones for $1650. Why can’t I sell for $1650? Is this a scam?
Understanding Retail Practices
Yes, you will see this. No, it’s not a scam. To be brutally frank, if you want a higher sale price on a used instrument, open a store, hire employees, pay rent, and manage inventory. What a brick and mortar store does and the market expertise they bring is an entire different thing than what a private sale is. The ‘1/2 to 2/3 of new’ price range recommended for private sellers will often enable stores to be a potential buyer of your instrument, albeit at the lower end of the range.
One way to look at it is, the store had to purchase the instrument from someone, likely towards the bottom of the $1000-1350 range mentioned before (expense). They had their technician go over it and fix what needed fixing (expense) and had staff clean up the case and make it pretty (expense). The store had to make space in the display or even just in inventory for it (expense). They had to educate their sales staff on the item (expense). All of these expenses, whether direct or indirect, must be recouped and $1650 covers much of it to keep the business making money.
Also, the store is likely going to stand behind the instrument for a period of time and offer extras as part of the sale that a private seller simply cannot match (new mouthpiece, couple of reeds, etc). These “extras” cost money that cuts into the profit margin. By selling it for $1650, when all is said and done, the store may be making only $50.
Determining a sale price for an instrument can be confusing and frustrating. Price your instrument realistically using the formula and parameters I described. Represent the instrument honestly and accurately. The market is always in flux so do not be afraid to seek advice. If it is too much to handle or get your head around, look into a consignment sale with a retail store. Consignments generally will take a percentage of the sale price, but if you would prefer someone else to handle it, that percentage could be money well-spent.